Newbie Questions

[madmunky]

Hi everyone,

So I'm now starting to play I'm still waiting on my wideband so not really do any mega changes at the moment but while I'm waiting for that I'm trying to understand better what going one so what's best to log to get a better idea of how the car is currently running

So I'm logging with EvoScan, what are the best columns to log and will logging unneeded columns slow down the logging?

Is it possible to log Boost on a Evo V?

Engine Knock: When its real should you get a fair few in a column as I would have expected to see the knock on more than 1 line if it was real (Is that correct?) of course Det-Can's are best to check but just by reading log files is that normally the case, also when you have pops and bangs enabled can these sometimes get picked up by the knock sensor as they can be pretty big sometimes..

TPS: I've notice that even when im WOT i dont get a 100% reading do you guys come across this a lot, i've done some reading and it seems like I may need to adjust mine by checking the voltage and adjust the TPS screw do you normally do this when mapping a car or is there a better/another way of doing this?

I'm still learning so sorry for the long thread, I've found a couple of PDF books to read about tuning which where posted on the forum..

http://rapidshare.com/files/356371842/DesigningAndTuningHigh-PerformanceFuelInjectionSystems.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/384949971/EngineManagementAdvancedTuning.rar

So will be working my way though these, is there any other links people can recommend. I've also watched the Video files posted over EvolutionM.net

http://forums.evolutionm.net/ecuflash/422098-training-videos-how-tune-evo-ecuflash.html

Cheers for taking the time to read this any help/advise is most welcome :)

[AndyF]

Main things to log

rpm - fairly obvious but used for interpolation of the various tables
tps - again, pretty obvious but used to know when you're on full throttle
injector duty - used to determine if you're close to maxxing out your injectors and can also be used to give you a rough idea of power output
knock - obvious
afr - obvious
load - used to work out where you are in the maps. Ideally you will enable and use 2 byte load on your ROM otherwise you can use calculated load to give you a rough idea.
fuel trims - used for scaling and sizing injectors

It's not possible to log boost on an E5 as only the E9 has a manifold pressure sensor.

Engine knock can be picked up by the sensor at any time so it's not necessarily true that it's only real if it appears in more than one row.

Pops'n'bangs don't activate the knock sensor as it's disabled when you're not on throttle.

As for the TPS, then what values is it showing? If it's under around 95% then it might be worth just quickly adjusting it. If it's greater than that then I wouldn't bother.

Hope that helps

Andy

[madmunky]

Thanks Andy, I did what I thought was a WOT in 3rd but the highest TPS value I have is 86.6, I should be able to just load Evoscan and push the throttle to the floor and see the value in EvoScan shouldn't I?

When you say enable the 2byte, Im running Ceddy map so is 2byte the same as "LoadCalc"?
Also when doing a pull would you not expect timing to slowly increase not drop, mines all over the place, going from 2000rpm to 6400rpm my timing is like this...

RPM, TimingAdv
2000, 26
2062, 25
2031, 26
2093, 25
2156, 27
2218, 27
2281, 26
2375, 26
2500, 22
2687, 19
2968, 18
3250, 14
3750, 5
4187, 6
4687, 7
5125, 8
5531, 8
5843, 10
6125, 12
6437, 14

[AndyF]

That timing seems to be somewhere near to OK.

You have to remember that below 3,500 rpm you have very little boost so you can get away with lots of timing. When the boost starts to come in you then have to reduce the timing to avoid getting knock. When you're then at steady boost and the revs are increasing you can advance the timing again in line with the rpm.

Andy

[madmunky]

Cheers again Andy,

Can you recommend any good links to read up on?

Any plans in doing some tutorial videos or thread on how you go from logging to a finished map?

[sbn1979]

evom has got some good ecuflash video tutorials

[madmunky]

Thanks I think they are the ones I've watched posted above, also another question I currently have the rallyart map and notice knocks up to 5 so thought I'd load my original Rom which report knocks also. Is this cause I've upped the boost to 1.3bar or is it normal for the stock map to knock.

I've got the logs so will take a look and post them up

[sbn1979]

possibly, i would lower the boost limit and see if the knocks gone

[madmunky]

Here's the part of the log file where the knocks are happening.

It's knocking all over the place, can anyone help with any ideas from the logs why it might be knocking.

I'll turn down the boost tomorrow and retry and I have a 1.2bar wastegate fitted.

[sbn1979]

i would say thats not real as your on part throttle, do you have the full log, with any full throttle runs? anything rattling on the car ie exhaust bracket, heat sheild etc

[Lee5]

I would not play with it until you have a wideband fitted.

How many runs have done as it does take sometime for the knock to level itself out, you get this sometimes when you flash a new rom you will get some random knock.

Lee

[madmunky]

Full log file attached, Like Lee said I flash my orginal rom then went back to the Ceddy RA one again so the ROM's not been loaded for long so maybe the knock needs to settle a bit.

I dont really want to play with the map but I dont get why im getting the knock when its meant to be a 'safe' map.

I'll check for lose bits as I had the head shield off at the weekend to fit the new actuator so maybe I'll just leave them off see if that helps.

Lee: I dont really want to play with it I only really wanted to log and see how the car was running but as its knocking and I use to car for work I just want to make it as safe as possible till I get the wideband, the highest value I have seen is 8 most of the time its more likly to be the odd random 3, is either of these a dangerous amount?

Is there anyone down my way (hampshire/west sussex) who has a wideband or Det-Cans who wouldnt mind coming out for a run to see if its real or not? Free Beer's included :)

[Lee5]

Looking at the log, the car is fine at peak load/peak torque.

Do you have any under bracing or anything loose under the bonnet as the knock is very random.

Lee

[sbn1979]

3 counts of knock will pull 1* of timing, i would do a log with a few WOT runs, cruising etc, make sure the cars got no rattles on it

[madmunky]

Cheers Guys :)

I'll do some more logging tomorrow and check everything is nice and tight, Is there any problems with removing the head shields?

Once I can confirm its not real but if I cant find anything loose is it possible to adjust the knock sensor so it doesn't pull the timing or is that not recommended in case of real knock?

[Lee5]

Cheers Guys :)

I'll do some more logging tomorrow and check everything is nice and tight, Is there any problems with removing the head shields?

Once I can confirm its not real but if I cant find anything loose is it possible to adjust the knock sensor so it doesn't pull the timing or is that not recommended in case of real knock?

From the logs the car is not pulling any timing as the octane level is 100, also the knock sensor is less sensitive at low loads.

Lee

[sbn1979]

i wouldnt advise changing the sensitivity of the knock sensor on your car, there is a reason why the knock sensors picking this noise up,

[GrayW]

Is there anyone down my way (hampshire/west sussex) who has a wideband or Det-Cans who wouldnt mind coming out for a run to see if its real or not? Free Beer's included :)

If you get stuck give me a shout:smile:

[madmunky]

Cheers Gray :)

[madmunky]

More Questions :)

When you change the Timing in a map or the map on the car its seem to register knock or quite awhile while it is adjusting to the new map how do you know when the knock will resolve itself or the timing needs to be adjusted?

Next question is about Fuel Octane Levels, everyone goes on about how its bad for the car to run it on cheap fuel i.e. 93ron but is this actually true? I know it will affect the performance but surly the car will just switch to the low octane map and it will not harm anything?

[Gwigga]

More Questions :)

When you change the Timing in a map or the map on the car its seem to register knock or quite awhile while it is adjusting to the new map how do you know when the knock will resolve itself or the timing needs to be adjusted?

Next question is about Fuel Octane Levels, everyone goes on about how its bad for the car to run it on cheap fuel i.e. 93ron but is this actually true? I know it will affect the performance but surly the car will just switch to the low octane map and it will not harm anything?

If the cars mapped on 95 say and you put 99 in it it will be ok

If the cars mapped on 99 and you put 95 then it will cause problems

[madmunky]

Is that right?

If the car is mapped on 99 it will be mapped in the high octane map so if you put in 95ron wont the car just switch to the low octane map?

[GrayW]

When you change the Timing in a map or the map on the car its seem to register knock or quite awhile while it is adjusting to the new map how do you know when the knock will resolve itself or the timing needs to be adjusted?

If you have made changes to the ignition map, these happen the minute you flash the new rom to the car. If you are still getting knock you have too much advance or another problem. If it does go I would image the octane flag has reduced by a huge amount to get it to stop.


Next question is about Fuel Octane Levels, everyone goes on about how its bad for the car to run it on cheap fuel i.e. 93ron but is this actually true? I know it will affect the performance but surly the car will just switch to the low octane map and it will not harm anything?

No the low octane map is only used when det (knock) is detected, in an ideal world the car should only run off the high octane map.
When knock is detected, the octane flag reduces and the ECU interpolates between the high and low maps (both fuel and ignition).

Is that right?

If the car is mapped on 99 it will be mapped in the high octane map so if you put in 95ron wont the car just switch to the low octane map?

If the car has been mapped on 99 and you fill up with 95 which will have less knock resistance, knock-sums increase and the octane flage reduces (you have det which is not ideal) causing the ECU to interpolate between the maps.
It's much easier to stop det by reducing advance by 2* as it starts, if you allow it to carry on which is not a good idea anyway, the ECU may reduce advance by say 15* before it stops.